Curse

snaek · Dec 04, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by higherminion

And yes, Barbs will do more damage than Necrosis.

on average, i give it ~100-150dmg per target... hardly worth the cost/cast time required, when you can do a 90 dmg necrosis for much cheaper. for ss to compare to that barbs dmg, it needs 3-4 triggers. if there are 3 adjacent foes, that already matches the damage output in a single aoe trigger.

in terms of raw damage output:
mark of pain > spiteful spirit > barbs

of course the "elite" status of ss comes into play here on judging whether or not its actually worth taking. if your in an organized group, many cases that will be a "no"; however, to say that it "sucks" is a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

The lazy playing style is rather silly. Don't you want to optimize your style? If you say you're lazy, it's like saying the game you play is just a grind you have to complete.

my playstyle is far from "lazy"... i just have pretty much used every single skill in the game and like to mix up builds everyday, whether they are good or bad or take skill or not. hexway is quite fun actually, you need multiple target awareness rather than c+spacing with ap builds. if anything, i should be the one to call you the grinder since you only consider the most effective skills to be viable and everything else as pointless.

HigherMinion · Dec 04, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

The game isn't much of a grind for me anymore. I have been PUGing everything and it makes the game alot more entertaining; certainly feels like alot less of a grind.

And you're wrong to put Spiteful Spirit above Barbs in damage; even though Barbs is Single-Target damage only, in most cases of PvE it will deal more damage, and if there's a mob- then that's what MoP is for. If you don't want to run Assassin's Promise, atleast take a different hex or a support elite; and take Air of Superiority to recharge.

Gennadios · Dec 04, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

MoP and Barbs havn't been all that important with minions since the ebon battlestandard of honor came along.

PvE melees also seem to favor scythe builds for the higher end content, particularly /w aura of holy might and/or asuran scan.

The only things that necros can bring to the table of a melee heavy party that can't be easily provided otherwise are enfeebling blood, rigor mortis, defile flesh, weaken armor, as well as price of failure/reckless haste or faintheartedness. Oh, and enchant removal.

qvtkc · Dec 04, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

And it's still painfully slow.

Of course; PvP-wise, it's balanced against Frenzy, and the numbers are not changed for PvE.

upier · Dec 04, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

Oh, and enchant removal.

Completely off but:
Gwen is currently my babe of choice for ench removal. Air Of Disenchantment is just godly. Not only do you get an AoE, fast casting, fast recharging ench removal - it also messes up all the enchantments that WILL be cast on that target.
And it's in the same line as Clumsy and WE which are probably the best two PvE mesmer hexes and among the best reactive hexes.

Xenomortis · Dec 04, 2009, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

on average, i give it ~100-150dmg per target... hardly worth the cost/cast time required, when you can do a 90 dmg necrosis for much cheaper.

2.25 seconds spent on Barbs, let's go with 10 triggers, giving 160 damage
2.5 seconds spent on Necrosis, let's go with Rank 10 Sunspear gives 180

160/2.25 is 71.111...
180/2.5 is 72

10 Triggers is not unreasonable. It depends on your setup. A bunch of sins attacking a target may or may not reach 10 hits depending on how buffed up they are, but consider minions and Ebon Sins too. Or even a paragon throwing his spear.
Barbs is also much more economical against bosses or enemies that refuse to die.

I will concede that Barbs is perhaps less useful than made out to be. Lately there have been times when I just haven't bothered casting it and little difference has been made. Unless under Mindbender then it can even mean missing my target with AP if I try casting it.

But I would not ever consider Necrosis on my AP bar. I can only take three PvE skills and I have 5 contenders, all of which I consider more useful (and the Ebon Sin is always there, so BuH, Mindbender, YMLAD and FH have to fight for the remaining two).

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

in terms of raw damage output:
mark of pain > spiteful spirit > barbs

Perhaps, but it is a useless comparison to make. One of those takes up your precious elite slot. Even for a disorganised PUG, I can think of a better elite.

But in terms of usefulness, if Barbs were elite, cost 5 energy and had a 1 second cast time; I would say Barbs > SS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

MoP and Barbs havn't been all that important with minions since the ebon battlestandard of honor came along.

Mark of Pain and Barbs increase in power with minions. EBSoH is more or less inconsequential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

The only things that necros can bring to the table of a melee heavy party that can't be easily provided otherwise are enfeebling blood, rigor mortis, defile flesh, weaken armor, as well as price of failure/reckless haste or faintheartedness. Oh, and enchant removal.

So weakening the enemy and making him more vulnerable to your attacks isn't useful? This is on top of MM role he can run, buffing your team's physicals and just plain old Ebon Sin Spam. Granted a couple of those can be run by non-necs, but the MM and Orders roles are best suited to a human necromancer.

AtomicMew · Dec 05, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Perhaps, but it is a useless comparison to make. One of those takes up your precious elite slot. Even for a disorganised pug I can think of a better elite

Such as? 123456

Xenomortis · Dec 05, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Such as? 123456

Fevered Dreams.

Hatchet Child · Dec 06, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Fevered Dreams.

It's your Favorite elite really

Xenomortis · Dec 06, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchet Child

It's your Favorite elite really

It's slower than AP-MoP or indeed any AP build.
But damn does it make H/Hing easier when faced with nukers that can rip your team apart in seconds.

Obviously it's less useful when your entire team is under Protective Bond. But even so, it's still useful in some places.

Hatchet Child · Dec 06, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

It's a fun Elite to run with if your team is packing a few conditions. Finish him, YMLAD, and so on. Finish him and YMLAD are Staple for some people when AP nuking so it doesn't go to waste.

snaek · Dec 06, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenomortis

2.25 seconds spent on Barbs, let's go with 10 triggers, giving 160 damage
2.5 seconds spent on Necrosis, let's go with Rank 10 Sunspear gives 180

160/2.25 is 71.111...
180/2.5 is 72

10 Triggers is not unreasonable. It depends on your setup. A bunch of sins attacking a target may or may not reach 10 hits depending on how buffed up they are, but consider minions and Ebon Sins too. Or even a paragon throwing his spear.
Barbs is also much more economical against bosses or enemies that refuse to die.

I will concede that Barbs is perhaps less useful than made out to be. Lately there have been times when I just haven't bothered casting it and little difference has been made. Unless under Mindbender then it can even mean missing my target with AP if I try casting it.

theres a reason i compared the 100-150 dmg of barbs to the 90 dmg of necrosis; 1 cast is usually all that is needed. like you said, there are times that you don't bother to cast barbs because the energy cost+cast time go to waste. as soon as you start needing 3+ casts of necrosis is when barbs will become more effective... but those times are few and far i.e. bosses.

i do agree that its not always worth its pve slot, but i already noted that in an earlier post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenomortis

But I would not ever consider Necrosis on my AP bar.

exactly... its low cost/recharge makes it suitable for non-ap bars. thats your main problem right there: your assuming the necro will be an ap build and team-build a physway, which in-turn also affects your viewpoint of ss being a viable elite.

Quote:

Perhaps, but it is a useless comparison to make. One of those takes up your precious elite slot. Even for a disorganised PUG, I can think of a better elite.

But in terms of usefulness, if Barbs were elite, cost 5 energy and had a 1 second cast time; I would say Barbs > SS.

too bad barbs isnt 5en/1c; until it is, it won't do more dmg than ss in general gameplay (especially pugway/randomway). i already addressed the elite status of ss if you bothered to quote the whole thing. in an organized group, i usually won't use ss; however, that does not mean it sucks. fevered dreams is a good elite, no doubt... but in a disorganized pug? really? self-maintained fevered dreams builds are viable but i do not think they compare to a self-maintained ss build, unless your so-called "disorganized pug" decide to bring a lot of conditions.

Xenomortis · Dec 06, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

thats your main problem right there: your assuming the necro will be an ap build and team-build a physway, which in-turn also affects your viewpoint of ss being a viable elite.

No I'm not. Even in a caster ball AP-Sin spam beats SS.
If we don't want that, I consider FD to be far superior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

self-maintained fevered dreams builds are viable but i do not think they compare to a self-maintained ss build, unless your so-called "disorganized pug" decide to bring a lot of conditions.

It's more than viable. It's very useful and powerful.
When I run it as H/H, the only two conditions my team provides that I don't, are burning and poison - and that's only when I bring my RoJ smite and MB.

AoE Deep Wound, Weakness, repeated Dazed, Cripple and Cracked Armour all come from me alone.

ValaOfTheFens · Dec 07, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

This argument really just comes down to which hexing style you prefer. I prefer reactive hexing and adjust my H/H lineup accordingly or coordinate my efforts with my group's proactive Necro. I don't care about skill, style, etc. All I care about is killing monsters and getting content done. Damage output is important to me when I happen to be solo farming but as long as I'm in a group that's a shared responsibility and not something I lose sleep over. Why do people always find reasons to complicate PvE and alienate people they want to "help"?

AtomicMew · Dec 07, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No I'm not. Even in a caster ball AP-Sin spam beats SS.

The problem with that is on an AP bar, you don't have enough damage alone to guarantee a kill. You are reduced to finishing off weakened targets, which, even then does not guarantee a kill when facing healers.

Quote:

It's (Fevered Dream) more than viable. It's very useful and powerful.
When I run it as H/H, the only two conditions my team provides that I don't, are burning and poison - and that's only when I bring my RoJ smite and MB.

AoE Deep Wound, Weakness, repeated Dazed, Cripple and Cracked Armour all come from me alone.

So I'm guessing YMLAD!, FH! and weaken armor? First of all, weaken armor is a weak skill in any setting, but especially in HM, counterintuitively, but precisely due to the high armor and level bonus everything has.

Secondly, YMLAD and FH are both weak without the recharge of AP. The crux of the skill combo is shutdown by AoE daze. Most of that function can be recovered by just taking Technobabble.

I basically agree with snaek in that both SS and necrosis are amazing and underrated skills. SS essentially shines when you can't necessarily control the direction of damage (e.g. in a pug).

SS is also seriously way easier to use than AP/MoP and isn't restricted to dedicating your focus on one target. For DoA balancedway for example, sure, AP/MoP has better potential. But it is a lot easier to screw up which could be potentially fatal. SS is nearly impossible to screw up and is definitely "good enough."

Hatchet Child · Dec 07, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Why are you comparing Necrosis and Barbs?

Barbs isn't PvE
Necrosis is PvE

HigherMinion · Dec 07, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traversc

The problem with that is on an AP bar, you don't have enough damage alone to guarantee a kill. You are reduced to finishing off weakened targets, which, even then does not guarantee a kill when facing healers.

So, one-two KDs and some spike damage with anti-blocks can't rid you of a monk? Then your team really is bad and need to re-think their builds/usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traversc

So I'm guessing YMLAD!, FH! and weaken armor? First of all, weaken armor is a weak skill in any setting, but especially in HM, counterintuitively, but precisely due to the high armor and level bonus everything has.

I don't think you know what "Finish Him!" does...

Quote:

I basically agree with snaek in that both SS and necrosis are amazing and underrated skills. SS essentially shines when you can't necessarily control the direction of damage (e.g. in a pug).

I'm sure that if you're not doing well in a pug, you could shout at them and spam calls. I'm sure they'd rather listen than fail. Don't gimp your own build because of them, help them improve instead!
What you're saying is SS shines when your team are terrible. Bad argument?

qvtkc · Dec 07, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

Damage output is important to me when I happen to be solo farming but as long as I'm in a group that's a shared responsibility and not something I lose sleep over. Why do people always find reasons to complicate PvE and alienate people they want to "help"?

It's the exact opposite for me, if I'm solo I only have a responsibility towards myself, so that makes it not such a big deal. But when I'm in a group, 8 people are relying on me to do my job well, it feels much more important. Even when I just play with a single friend and 6 heroes it feels much more important than when I'm alone.

Xenomortis · Dec 07, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

So I'm guessing YMLAD!, FH! and weaken armor? First of all, weaken armor is a weak skill in any setting, but especially in HM, counterintuitively, but precisely due to the high armor and level bonus everything has.

Why on earth would I have Weaken Armour when I have FH?
My build is:
12+1 SR, 12 Illusion, 3+whatever Curses.
FD, Fragility, YMLAD, FH, CoP, Enfeeble, Rip Enchant, SoLS
SoLS is not really necessary, but there's not much else I can bring (the poison from Fetid Ground maybe, but a MB with Death Nova fills that).
FD provides repeated dazed, YMLAD cripple, FH cracked armour and deep wound, Enfeeble weakness and Rip Enchant can provide bleeding (provided target is fleshy).

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Secondly, YMLAD and FH are both weak without the recharge of AP. The crux of the skill combo is shutdown by AoE daze. Most of that function can be recovered by just taking Technobabble.

Not quite. The dazed from FD is repeated meaning and the condition lengths are more than maintable. Sure, you'll probably only get FH off once or twice a fight (maybe more if things are durable), but that's enough.
Also note the area of effect of FD and Technobabble. "In the Area" is a lot bigger and more useful than "Adjacent"

Of course SS is easier to run. It's truly mindless. If you're a total idiot in a total idiot group then you might want to run it.
If I was in a total idiot group, I'd want to ensure the survival of my team and I'd do that with FD (assuming I was on my Necro or Mes).

A while ago I made several attempts to H/H Vloxen on my Necro.
The first attempts were made using my standard AP-MoP setup. Wiped a lot on the 1st Slaver's type group on the 1st level (that group before the exit, after the boss that always have a load of minions up). I think I once made it to 2nd level. Progress was fast when it was made though.
Later I tried using Fevered Dreams. Progress was easier, if slower. I managed to beat the 1st group on the 2nd floor but it was punishing.
Last attempt was made using SS. It was mind-numbingly slow (especially against the plants), but I did progress the furthest and only wiped because I forgot about the Ooze popups.

Don't take this to mean "SS got me the furthest, therefore it's better" - I'd already made several attempts by then and had more experience before I went in with that.

qvtkc · Dec 07, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

SS still has more certainty than the other methods. The only thing that can go wrong with SS is that the AI stops killing itself, and that never ever happens.